BACKGROUND
In the official biography of Tolkien, Humphrey Carpenter explains some of Tolkien’s interest in Old Norse works like the Prose Edda’s “Gylfaginning” when he writes:
“He [Tolkien] found even more to excite his imagination when he studied his special subject. Old Norse (or Old Icelandic: the names are interchangeable) is the language that was brought to Iceland by the Norwegians who fled from their native land in the ninth century. Tolkien was already moderately acquainted with Norse, and he now made a thorough study of its literature. He read the sagas and the Prose or Younger Edda. He also studied the Poetic or Elder Edda; and so it was that he came upon the ancient storehouse of Icelandic myth and legend.
‘The Elder Edda’ is the name given to a collection of poems, some of them incomplete or textually corrupt, whose principal manuscript dates from the thirteenth century. But many of the poems themselves are more ancient, perhaps originating at a period earlier than the settlement of Iceland. Some are heroic, describing the world of men, while others are mythological, treating of the deeds of gods. Among the mythological lays in the Elder Edda none is more remarkable than the Völuspa or Prophecy of the Seeress, which tells the story of the cosmos from its creation, and foretells its doom. The most remarkable of all Germanic mythological poems, it dates from the very end of Norse heathendom, when Christianity was taking the place of the old gods; yet it imparts a sense of living myth, a feeling of awe and mystery, in its representation of a pagan cosmos. It had a profound appeal to Tolkien’s imagination.” (Carpenter 72-73)
Carpenter, Humphrey. J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biography. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2000.
EXERCISE
Several aspects of the Prose Edda had such “a profound appeal to Tolkien’s imagination” that they found their way into Tolkien’s own fiction. Some might even say that Tolkien “stole” material from the Prose Edda to use in his own works.
-- Record your full list and your defense/justification in a comment to this post no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
-- Reply to comments about this post from at least 2 different classmates no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
Comments on this page will not count toward your blog requirement for this week. To earn points for the regular blog requirement, you must post/comment on the Home page.
In the official biography of Tolkien, Humphrey Carpenter explains some of Tolkien’s interest in Old Norse works like the Prose Edda’s “Gylfaginning” when he writes:
“He [Tolkien] found even more to excite his imagination when he studied his special subject. Old Norse (or Old Icelandic: the names are interchangeable) is the language that was brought to Iceland by the Norwegians who fled from their native land in the ninth century. Tolkien was already moderately acquainted with Norse, and he now made a thorough study of its literature. He read the sagas and the Prose or Younger Edda. He also studied the Poetic or Elder Edda; and so it was that he came upon the ancient storehouse of Icelandic myth and legend.
‘The Elder Edda’ is the name given to a collection of poems, some of them incomplete or textually corrupt, whose principal manuscript dates from the thirteenth century. But many of the poems themselves are more ancient, perhaps originating at a period earlier than the settlement of Iceland. Some are heroic, describing the world of men, while others are mythological, treating of the deeds of gods. Among the mythological lays in the Elder Edda none is more remarkable than the Völuspa or Prophecy of the Seeress, which tells the story of the cosmos from its creation, and foretells its doom. The most remarkable of all Germanic mythological poems, it dates from the very end of Norse heathendom, when Christianity was taking the place of the old gods; yet it imparts a sense of living myth, a feeling of awe and mystery, in its representation of a pagan cosmos. It had a profound appeal to Tolkien’s imagination.” (Carpenter 72-73)
Carpenter, Humphrey. J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biography. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2000.
EXERCISE
Several aspects of the Prose Edda had such “a profound appeal to Tolkien’s imagination” that they found their way into Tolkien’s own fiction. Some might even say that Tolkien “stole” material from the Prose Edda to use in his own works.
- Make a list of 3-5 themes, characters, actions, ideas, or other elements from the Prose Edda's “Gylfaginning” that appear in one or more works by Tolkien.
- Select 1-2 items from your list on which to write a brief defense or justification that Tolkien used that item in his work in a way that was not “stealing.”
-- Record your full list and your defense/justification in a comment to this post no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
-- Reply to comments about this post from at least 2 different classmates no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
Comments on this page will not count toward your blog requirement for this week. To earn points for the regular blog requirement, you must post/comment on the Home page.
All of the Dwarves from the Hobbit, Gandalf’s name, the theme of the importance of hospitality, Shadowfax from Day’s horse Skinfaxi, idea of wolves as evil creatures
ReplyDeleteThe most notable and obvious example is all of the names of the dwarves in Thorin’s company, including Thorin, come from the Prose Edda. I found it a little amusing to read all these familiar names in the list of dwarves. A reason Tolkien might be justified in using these for the names of his dwarves is because in the Prose Edda it’s simply a list of names. We aren’t really given anything else regarding these dwarves besides this. It’d be like going through a book of baby names and selecting them from there. There is the context that they are specifically dwarves, for this instance, but that’s negligible. Tolkien takes these names and creates characters for them, of which we do not get for these names in the Prose Edda.
The theme of the importance of hospitality. This is seen when Thor takes shelter with a peasant family and we see this extensively in Tolkien’s works. This is an incredibly common theme not just seen in the Prose Edda, but also in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. The Host-Guest relationship was of great importance in a lot of tales. Thus, Tolkien taking this on in his works can’t possibly be viewed as “stealing” as it’s so common.
I, too, found great joy in recognizing the dwarves' names in the Prose Edda. I think its interesting that the dwarves, Gandalf, and Shadowfax (in Tolkien's works) got this norse background rather than having all the characters in his works also have a norse background. I can definietly see it with the dwarves in the way they are portrayed in Tolkien's works; they are raucous, enjoy food and drink, they live more north-east, and seem (to me) to be more barabaric than the elves and hobbits.
DeleteFor Gandalf and Shadowfax however, they don't strike me as "norse" in the sense that the dwarves are so it is interesting that Tolkien chose to take those names from a norse background.
It was definitely surprising for me to see so many familiar names in the Prose Edda. Especially since Tolkien does such a great job of making the actual characters unique to his stories, even though the draw a lo of influence from another story entirely. I think this demonstrates Tolkien's skills when it comes to character development. He chooses things of influence that don't hinder characters ability to be unique to his writings.
DeleteNow don't get me wrong, I am no expert in Norse linguistics, but it seems that much of Tolkien's naming conventions come from Norse tradition. I'm not sure if that is because of how Tolkien developed his languages, or just out of coincidence, but it seems like many of the names used in his works sound similar to Norse words. Dúnedain, Númenor, Rohan etc., all sound like Norse words, even if they aren't. It would make sense that Tolkien would name things this way, because of his own personal interest in Norse studies.
DeleteI'm actually relieved that Tolkien utilized some Old Norse names in his stories. I often wonder how authors craft names that are believable to incorporate in their books. How does one make the perfect name for a character? I suppose I thought that some people were just skilled at name-making while others weren't. Tolkien, though, seemed absolutely incredible at it since most of his characters' names (with the only exceptions I can really think of being Sam[wise] and Rosie) are not common to the modern world. Finding some familiar names in a centuries-old text, then, made this whole naming process seem so much more real considering how Tolkien took some of these to craft characters out of them.
DeleteI agree with your justification behind the dwarf names because I hadn't even thought about ti that way. They really are just a list and nothing more Tolkien simply took the names and gave them stories.
DeleteThere was no way in Hel that I was going to mention the names in time before everyone else, so congrats for being the first! Kidding aside, excellent defense of the names. I think the word amusing encapsulates everyone's reaction to seeing those names - and it just might be one of the reasons Tolkien added them to The Hobbit. Just like his scholar friends would have gotten a kick out of the etymology jokes in Farmer Giles of Ham, I am sure Tolkien's colleagues would have had big laugh from recognizing the names of the dwarves as well!
DeleteI was going to mention the names but Elwing already did that!
ReplyDeleteWhen King Gylfe disguised himself as an old man to go to Asgard (as Ganglere) that reminded me starkly of the description of Olorin taking the form of elves to walk among them, and taking the form of an old man in his journey’s across Middle Earth. The idea of disguising oneself for a journey isn't a new one thought!
Tyr’s hand being bitten off by the Fenris-Wolf reminded me of Beren’s hand being bitten off by Carcharoth. However, this is not stealing because the circumstances around the injury were different. Tyr placed his hand into Fenrer’s mouth when the asas bound the wolf as proof that they would let the wolf go (and when they didn’t, the wolf bit off his hand). Beren, on the other hand (pun-intended) was attempting to fend of Carcharoth, thrusting the Silmaril at the wolf at which the wolf bit his hand off, swallowing it and the Silmaril. I do think the story of Tyr influenced that moment, but by changing the situation around, we get a hero given a fairly grave injury in a stressful forced situation instead of in a test of courage (which wasn’t necessary).
The songs/rhymes in between sections (“thus it is said,” “he sang this,” etc.) as well as the short prophecies about different mythological characters was also familiar in Tolkien’s writing. We often see Tolkien give small poems to his characters’ (Bilbo and Frodo with “the road goes ever on and on,”), either for short bursts of humor or relief in stressful passages, or to explain about a specific character. The sections that reminded me most of this is the poem/prophecy about Aragorn (“the throneless again shall be king”) and Tom Bombadil’s speeches – which are short bursts of ‘poetry’ inside longer batches of prose (description) that feel like they act similarly to me to the short bursts in the Gylfaginning.
I find your comparison and the items you identified very intriguing. I didn't even consider the Silmarillion when doing this exercise and I think that's a very fruitful approach as I feel there's a lot of similarities between Tolkien's whole creation story and Norse mythology.
DeleteOne particular instance that caught my attention, which wasn't in this section we read but in the Poetic Edda, was a poem where Thor stalls for time with a wisdom contest against a dwarf until the sun rises and he turns to stone. This was very reminiscent of Gandalf distracting the trolls until the sun peaked over the horizon in the Hobbit.
Considering all these possible sources of inspiration and where they appear in Tolkien's work is very interesting.
Speaking to your idea of disguising one's self to go on a journey, I found it really interesting that more often than not the character disguises themselves as an old person. Along with your examples of King Gylfe and Olorin I seem to remember Sauron also disguising himself as an old man, or if not an old man he still disguises himself. Each of these times the disguise is meant to catch others of guard and I think when one is disguised as an old man they are looking to appear inconsequential and helpless, putting others off their guard.
DeleteI liked your point about inserting poetry within the prose passages. I think you are right in saying that this strongly resembles how Tolkien adds short songs or verses, related or unrelated to the general plot, throughout his works. I wonder if this was due to his love for old poetry such as that found in Sir Gawain and Prose Edda and the technique of providing a "break" from the narrative to give the reader some rest.
DeleteIn the Prose Edda, Odin puts his gold ring (Draupner) on Balder's funeral pile and then the narrator goes on to explain that the ring can make eight more rings just like it every ninth night. However, it doesn't say that these new eight rings are equal in power to Draupner and can create their own rings. This is very similar to the One Ring in Tolkien's works as the One Ring has control over all the other rings. Tolkien did not "steal" this idea because he adds power and back story to the One Ring that work for his purposes that are not attached to Draupner. The One Ring cannot reproduce rings like Draupner can but it does have the ability to corrupt any who are near it. Tolkien added this to the One Ring because it fit with his theme of the corruption of power, and he took away the reproducing aspect of the ring because it would be pretty annoying for the characters to have to deal with all these rings and trying to find the real one. In short, Tolkien was inspired by Draupner, just like all things are inspired by other things, but he put his own spin on his rings so it could better work with the story he was telling and the message he wanted to send.
ReplyDeleteI though it was really interesting to read obout a super powerful ring tht could reproduce itself, especially when you realize the kind of havoc that could have caused if Tolkien had also added this feature to the One Ring. These modifications to this story really point out why these are not stolen by Tolkien, because he clearly put lots of thought into how this object affects the world and characters he has created.
DeleteThis was a very interesting point in the story because I always wondered where Tolkien got the idea for the rings. Although its so common to me now, I've never read a story where the powerful object was a ring. usually its a sword or weapon that has some kind of mystical power. I like how Tolkien adapted this into The Lord of the Rings how he did. Like you said, he didn't steal it, he was inspired and put his own twist on it.
DeleteI thought it was very interesting reading about a ring that was very similar to Tolkien's One Ring. I could definitely see that as borrowing an idea and not giving credit just because that's not really a common idea among authors to have this really powerful ring.
DeleteI agree completely! I really liked seeing the similarity between Draupner, and its power above all other rings, and the one ring within The Lord of the Rings. This is something I definitely think that Tolkien was inspired by but I love that he ultimately made this idea his own.
DeleteWhen Harr is describing to Gangleri what shall come to pass, he mentiones that Surtr, one of the Sons of Muspell, possesses a sword that is 'exceedingly good' and "from it radiance shines brighter than the sun. This reminded me of the mighty and almost magical swords' Tolkien includes in the Hobbit and Lord of the rings, especially The sting, which glows a bright blue color when orcs are near. It is very possible that tokien took a lot of influence for weaponry from this work, but not to the extent of it being stealing. I think the idea of mystical weapons is a common theme in many medieval stories, and having it included in Tolkien's works fits in to the rest of the setting really well. Giving weapons their own traits helps them to feel almost like their own characters, which I think the story would be lacking otherwise, so Tolkien definitely used this idea with a purpose.
ReplyDeleteWhen the Fenris-wolf bit off Tyr's hand, I was reminded of Isuldur cutting off the hand of Sauron to take the ring. It is a powerful character being somewhat defeated and shamed by a seemingly lesser being, but still escaping the ordeal alive. Why Tyr and Sauron are very different characters, it is easy to see the parallel with loosing the hand. However, Tolkien clearly took inspiration from this with a purpose. Its a clever way to establish small defeat and personal loss without killing a character, and advancing the plot of the story in a very sudden but dramatic way.
Gandalf already mentioned this, but I also found the use of song or poetry to introduce important events/prophesy very interesting. I think this is one of the trademark features of mythological ales, and I can definitely see why Tolkien used it in his own stories with his own spin on it.
The idea of powerful and legendary swords seems to be pervasive throughout the literature that we have read in this class. There is a powerful sword in "Farmer Giles of Ham" as well as the countless swords in Tolkien's Middle-Earth such as Sting and the Orcrist. It is interesting that this idea of the importance and even personality of swords exists in Norse mythology as well.
DeleteYou bring up an interesting point regarding the sword of Surtr and its similarity to the swords of important figures in Tolkien's work. Giving a sword/weapon a name and distinctive characteristics almost makes me want to believe that Tolkien aligned the "personality" of a weapon with its particular owner. Andúril, the sword of Aragorn and Elendil before him, strikes me as a possible example of this as it was broken when the King of Gondor fell (thus representing the loss of the great kings) and reforged when the rightful heir returned to claim his throne (Aragorn). Additionally, Sting matches the nature of Frodo (and Bilbo) since they are both small, but subtly strong and intuitive. I could just be reaching and it's possible this wasn't Tolkien's intention but it's a nice idea all the same.
DeleteMany names from "Prose Edda" are similar if not identical to names from Tolkien's works. Notable ones are many of the dwarves from the Hobbit, and Gandalf. The "Vala" also is very similar to the Valar. The world is created by one all-powerful creator, but his power is delegated to other beings as well.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting similarity I have seen as well is the Bifrost and the path to Valinor in Middle-Earth. Both are the path that individuals must take to go between the immortal land and the mortal one; Asgard to Earth in "Prose Edda" and Valinor to Middle-Earth in Tolkien's works. The path is only accessible to ones that are worthy and chosen by higher powers.
This definitely isn't "stealing" committed by Tolkien. There are notable differences between them which shows Tolkien's stamp on the idea. For example, the Bifrost is visible to everyone (it is believed to be a rainbow), while the path to Valinor is really only visible if you are on it, as Tolkien writes (I believe in the Silmarillion?) that as you sail to Valinor, you sail past the curve of the earth and see the sea drop away below you. Another notable difference is the fact that Asgard by way of the Bifrost is inaccessible to the sons of Muspel, and if they attempt to cross it, the Bifrost will break. Valinor, however, has been accessed by someone other than the chosen race of the elves. Eärendil was able to find Valinor, and Sam and Frodo both eventually make it to Valinor, being but "lowly" hobbits.
I didnt even think about the compairison of the Bifrost and the path to Valinor. I think its a really great point, and in a way really hammers in the idea that Tolkien's elves are above most of the other races. So then the ideas of some of the elves being cast out of Valinor really startes to reflect Ragnorok, which makes for an intersting way to think about the Middle Earth when one reads LotR: its a post-apocolyptic world.
DeleteAnyways enough with me going down a rabbit hole, nice job!
One of the elements I noticed in Prose Edda was the repeated reference to trees. Tolkien was known to love trees and forests, and we see throughout his books varying forests and trees which he gives extra attention to. The Silmarillion tells of the two trees of Valinor, and The Hobbit has the Company pass through Mirkwood forest. The Lord of the Rings, likewise, highlights the Old Forest, Fangorn, and Lothlorien as great lands of great myth, import, and faerie. But most importantly, Tolkien profiles the Tree of Gondor which bears a certain resemblance to the ash tree in Prose Edda whose roots lie in the fountain of Urd.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Tolkien "stole" the imagery and importance of trees from Prose Edda. As mentioned before, he already was a lover of trees and forests, and I guess it was this affection that shaped his writings on trees throughout his works. Nevertheless, perhaps Prose Edda aided Tolkien in writing about trees with a mythical twist, adding the element of faerie to what was so common and recognized.
Another similarity I saw between Prose Edda and The Return of the King was the usage of the funeral pyre. After Balder was slain, his body was laid on a funeral-pile which would then be set ablaze. I am no adept student at ancient Norse mythology or custom, but if I recall correctly, this was a common funeral practice of the Danes, Vikings, etc. Tolkien seems to utilize this in the chapters regarding Denethor's madness. "We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West," Denethor says before he takes the injured Farimir and proceeds to set himself on fire. This scene was likely inspired by the Nordic practice mentioned in Prose Edda. This would not have been "stealing" either since this method of "burial" was probably understood, but regardless, I think the similarities between the two are easily apparent.
Finally, just on another note, I will also add that the description of the hall near the beginning of Prose Edda bears a stark resemblance to the Golden Hall of Edoras. Legolas describes this hall as "thatched with gold." This directly compares to the description of Asgard whose roof "was thatched with golden shields as with shingles." I can't say for certain why Tolkien would make Edoras so similar to Asgard, so if anyone has a thought on that, I am eager to hear it.
I really like how you talked about trees as a theme. Its true that we have talked a lot about Tolkien being very pro nature, give how he grew up and what we see in his work. I know I usually just think about that as something that was influenced by his own experiances, I did not think about the role Yggdrasil might have had in influencing Tolkien.
DeleteI also think the funeral pyre is an interesting note, and I agree that the use of it could never be considered stealing. Its interesting to see the influence of both specific works and more general culture on Tolkien's works.
The first character in Prose Edda that struck me as similar to a Tolkien character was Odin, the father of all the gods. What stood out to me about Odin was the idea that there were a lot (!) of names that he was known by. He has such a great number of names not only due to his journeys but also due to different peoples making his name in their own language so that they may pray to him. This old, powerful, and respected god with many names reminded me of the way Gandalf is known differently by the different races of Middle Earth. By the Elves, he is known as Mitrandir (in Sindarian); by the Dwarves in their language he is known as Tharkûn; in the North, he is Gandalf; in Valinor, his name is Olórin. Others posts have already been made pointing out other similarities between Gandalf and Odin which further supports the strong likelihood of Tolkien drawing inspiration for Gandalf from the Prose Edda. I definitely wouldn't say he copied from the poem, since we have discussed other aspects of Gandalf that are based on other powerful, supernatural beings.
ReplyDeleteOf course, it was hard not to notice how many dwarf names Tolkien used directly from Prose Edda in the Hobbit, such as Thorin, Durin, and Bifur, to name a few. Other names, he merely changed the spelling slightly, but are clearly based on the ones in Edda. Though one could definitely call this "stealing," I would say it's of little consequence since they are names mentioned in passing with less significance.
While I was reading the Prose Edda, I almost felt like I was reading a different version of the Silmarillion. The numerous gods, the creation stories, the specific heroic beings and their trials and errors definitely reminded me of the heroes and gods in the Silmarillion. Alfather, the oldest and most powerful of all the gods, aligned with the Silmarillion's Ilúvatar, the omnipotent creator of the universe (Eä) and all the Valar. I'm not sure if I'd call this a direct inspiration for Tolkien, since an all-powerful being is a key aspect of many culture's creation stories and in this way, you could argue that Ilúvatar was simply Tolkien's spin on it (not exactly drawn from Norse mythology).
I find your comparison of Gandalf to Odin very intriguing. The many names part specifically is very interesting as I wonder if Gandalf was given these names or adopted them himself. The reason being as I believe Odin often prescribes the different names he goes by to himself in all the different places he journeys.
DeleteThis aspect of Odin's character really reminds me of Turin Turambar, where every different place he went he would call himself a different name. He additionally was also given a few names by those he resided with.
Tolkien's characters going by a multitude of names is a common occurrence, it seems, as another prevalent one would be Aragorn and his different names.
When doing some research for my paper, I found a lot of material comparing Gandalf to Odin so this was interesting to read. in addition to Turin calling himself something different everywhere he went, I think you could also say the same for Gandalf. Perhaps Gandalf didn't give himself these names, but in the land of Gondor the people call him a different name than in the shire. You brought up some interesting points! thanks for the entertaining read!
DeleteThanks for your great comparison of the Prose Edda and the Silmarillion! It is quite interesting, as I too got a similar feel from reading the former in light of the latter, especially when one compares Melkor and Loki. Both are technically similar to the beings that make up the pantheon; however, their deceit and desire for power lead them to be punished and cast out. Of course, this is similar to Satan in the Bible, but this only seems to solidify Tolkien’s idea of the bones of in stories, a rich soup of archetypical ideas from which all stories inevitably harken from.
DeleteI really love your comparison of Gandalf to Odin. That's a really interesting contrast. I also completely agree with your idea of similar origin stories. They are really different in the the details, but overall have a really similar vibe and theme.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteOne of Tolkien’s main sources for his fiction was the Edda. After getting involved and doing some research, I found that the Edda consists of two parts, the Song-Edda which is a compilation of ancient songs and poems about heroes and gods, and the Prose-Edda which contains stories about the gods.
A few things seen in the Gylfaginning that appear in the lord of the rings are:
The race of the dwarves
The name Gandalf
The names of most of the dwarves in The Hobbit
Eating, drinking, and having a merry ol’ time.
The straightforward “brutish” mannerisms of the dwarves.
Although the names of the dwarves and Gandalf were almost taken verbatim from Gylfaginning, I believe Tolkien did this because he was almost citing his sources in a way. I think that Tolkien enjoyed everything about these characters so much that he didn't want to change anything at all. Instead of paraphrasing, he inserted “quotes” of the dwarves in his stories and cited them with names. I hope this makes sense and that I’m describing this in a way that's understandable. All i'm saying is that Tolkein could have changed the dwarves to act differently but he liked them as they were. Instead of changing the names he made sure that whoever read the Prose-Edda would know exactly where he got the idea for the dwarves.
Your point about Tolkien citing his sources does make sense! It's entirely possible Tolkien wanted the reader to be able to recognize characters if they were familiar with Norse mythology and thus by including the exact (or almost exact) names, he was simply giving credit where credit was due. If you were to look at his use of his inspirations in this way, it would appear that he's being respectful as a writer by directly "citing" the source rather than taking a character/idea and claiming it as his own (i.e. stealing).
DeleteI love your idea of Tolkien "citing" his source by using the same names for the dwarves (and Gandalf). I think that's really interesting. I kind of passed it off as using it to signify certain characteristics in those characters. As well as the fact that many people draw names form old mythologies to do this.
DeleteMake a list of 3-5 themes, characters, actions, ideas, or other elements from the Prose Edda's “Gylfaginning” that appear in one or more works by Tolkien.
ReplyDeleteSelect 1-2 items from your list on which to write a brief defense or justification that Tolkien used that item in his work in a way that was not “stealing.”
List: Dwarf names, riddle contests, list descriptions of gods ( Æsir/Valar), importaince of names.
So for this I want to talk about the riddle contests. In Norse myth, these were very common, as the start of the Edda is one. And I think Tolkien using it makes it very interesting. The thing with wisdom contests is that while you are asking questions, you must also know the answer to the questions that you ask. In Norse myth, we see examples of Odin useing this to get answers to questions that he does not know in his search for knowledge, then uses a bs question to win the contest. This reminds me of Bilbo when he has his contest with Gollum. While not exactly meaning too, Bilbo uses a question that Gollum could not know the answer to in order to win the contest. While these two are similar, I do not think what Tolkien did would be considered stealing. First, it is a common troupe used in Old Norse, so not used by only one author. If Tolkien is stealing this, then so are several other authors. Also, I think what makes things differnt is the characters and the way they react to things. For instance, Odin tends to be more calculating and malicious in his winning, where as Bilbo stumbles on his question on accident. Bilbo also is at higher risk in a situation he does not understand, he is trying to survive. I think that while the core idea of the contest is the same, everything surounding it is different, so Tolkien is not stealing, but useing a troupe in his work.
oops, I forgot to delete the prompt at the beginning... sorry!
DeleteThe aspect of riddles is definitely shared! I forgot to mention it in my post, but its an important one for sure. I think your defense based on the different circumstances is quite solid.
DeleteThemes/Characters:
ReplyDelete1. wizards
2. dwarf names from The Hobbit
3. elves
4. singing
5. the name Gandalf
First I'd like to talk about Dwarf names because they are very very similar to the ones in The Hobbit. There are spelling differences between the two which to me shouldn't be seen as stealing and should be viewed more as they inspired the names Tolkien gave the dwarves. Tolkien also did not "steal" all the names he only selected a few. The other thing I want to discuss is the fact that Tolkien used dwarves, elves, and wizards in his stories as well. These three races are very common and most fiction literature features these three races so it isn't stealing just because Tolkien used three races that are very common especially when he has created many different species/races throughout his books.
The fact that these creatures have become common in other literature does make sense as to why it isn't stealing. I thought more about how Tolkien expanded their descriptions, but the fact that he isn't the original thief helps too.
DeleteI would like to propose that dwarves, elves, and wizards became so common in literature (at least ones featuring all three) partially because of Tolkien. I feel as if before hand they would be featured in many stories but not all together, but also that they weren't stolen from the Prose Edda asides from possibly the elves and dwarves. While creatures similar to dwarves appear in many mythologies, I feel like elves are mostly from Northern European mythologies and thus also partially explains why they are typically very Northern European looking. I would still agree that he didn't steal them just legitimately was inspired, but just specifically in literature that he popularized all three much more.
DeleteIdeas Tolkien used: Dwarves, the grand and complicated story of the world’s creation, and the idea of good and evil gods.
ReplyDeleteTolkien took brief descriptions of dwarves from the Prose Edda, and turned them into a whole species, with their own lore, habits, and culture. He expanded so much on them that he used more of his own creation than was in the Edda. This expansion I would say is enough that he is not stealing.
I definitely think that it is possible for authors to be inspired by an idea and then expand upon that idea to the point that it, in a way, becomes their own. It seems as if this is what Tolkien has done with dwarves. It is truly amazing that Tolkien created entire cultures to further his own stories and worlds, in fact, this is one of my favorite things about Tolkien and his works!
DeleteMerry,
DeleteI had not thought much about the complicated creation story. Tolkien's is so detailed that we didn't really get through it in two class discussions! I suppose the only difference in his is the use of one main deity and seven angelic beings. I agree that he used the dwarves in Prose Edda as inspiration, rather than an idea to directly steal. He made the dwarves of Middle-Earth unique to his stories.
Three things that seem to be similarities between Prose Edda and Tolkien's works would be:
ReplyDelete1. The idea of "one" ring to rule them all
2. Names, specifically the dwarve's and Gandalf's names
3. The use of song
The use of song seems to be an aspect that happens to always be included within J.R.R. Tolkien's stories. Song, as well as poetry, is also considered a "must" within many mythological tales. This is something that must have inspired Tolkien and, because of his interest in history and linguistics, creating poetry and/or song to go along with his works must have been something he considered a necessity to make his stories all the more real and of quality.
Where do you suppose he got the "one ring" idea from the Prose Edda? And I ONE HUNDRED percent agree with you on the dwarve's names! The first time I read them, as well as the motif of the dwarves, I got strong Norse vibes from them. I will say that the song is probably the easiest to defend because you certainly have a point. In fact, in many mythos the histories are told through songs themselves and you can find the stories within the lyrics or even behind the instruments used for specific songs. I think it was probably heavily inspired by Norse mythos overall though, just due to his interest in it and that a lot of Norse mythos overall includes heavy singing for both telling and in the plotlines of the stories.
DeleteTheodred,
DeleteYou're so right that Tolkien took the idea of the dwarves' names from the Prose Edda! It is fairly obvious that Tolkien drew a ton of inspiration from this story. I think that he probably studied the long-lasting and popular mythological stories to know what resonated with people.
The names of the dwarves seem the most obvious thing that Tolkien took from Edda, as well as Gandalf's name, and in a way a somewhat similar origin story of the world and the gods. In the Silmarillion, Tolkien starts the world with a song, but eventually one of the valar changes the song. With the norse mythology it is a bit different, but in a way you can see similarities in the creation of the valar and the creation of the gods. They are hewn from each other and go on quests to better wither themselves or the world. Another thing I thought was at least slightly similar was the inevitable end (or Ragnarok for the Norse). There was an inevitable end to the quest and the time of the elves in Middle Earth. For the Norse there was an impending doom of the gods since the beginning. You always knew it was coming, but it does not lessen the blow once it does arrive.
ReplyDeleteFor the names of the dwarves and Gandalf, I don't know that there is much of a defense except that many people use the names from old mythologies to signify certain attributes in their own characters. For the creation story, I believe you are going to have some crossover no matter how creative you try to be. There is always going to be certain things that you can point out as similar. However, I think Tolkien likely drew from multiple sources for this. I see a lot of similarities between the Norse, Greek, and Christian creation stories. They certainly differ in the details, but they all have some overlap. Therefore, it isn't all that surprising that Tolkien's creation story in the Silmarillion has some similarities to this creation story from Edda.
For Ragnarok, any story has an end. It may be a long ways off or it may be rapidly approaching, but in any case, every story has to end. It just depends on where you end the story of how the end appears to the reader. Sam's life did not end at the end of LOTR, but it was the end as far as we know. I think Ragnarok has a little more similarities with the end of the age of the elves. All the elves knew this was coming, but they continued on despite that. In LOTR they even mention that the destruction of the ring will lead to a loss of their power, but they are willing to do this despite that fact. In the case of Ragnarok, the gods are not so much willing as accepting of their fate. They know there is nothing they can do to prevent and so they accept their roles in spite of their destiny. Thor knows that he will not survive the fight with the world serpent, but he does not run from the fight. However, I see this as more of a common theme than stolen material from Edda.
When it comes to similar elements in the Prose Edda, one that came to mind was the use of reinterpretation as a way to escape or fulfill a condition of a prophecy or deal. There are two examples of this in “Gylfaginning”. The first one occurs when Gefjun is promised ploughland as large as four oxen could plough in a full day, which leads to her getting giant oxen from Jotunheim. The other is when the builder asks for Freyja along with the sun and moon for building a fortress in one winter, which he nearly does. Both of these are similar to when the Nazgul boasts that no living man can hinder him, after which he is defeated by Eowyn and the power of loopholes. It also happens when Bilbo takes the Arkenstone as his share of the treasure. Of coures, while similar, these events are mere inspired archetypes rather than direct stealing, since even Shakespear’s Macbeth has a similar plot point.
ReplyDeleteAnother similarity can be found in the origins of the dwarves. In “Gylfaginning”, it is revealed that the dwarves did not start out as sentient, but merely maggots in the flesh of Ymir. The gods take notice and kindly bequieve them sentience and form. In a similar fashion, Aule in his impatience creates the dwarve but cannot give them a soul, making them nothing more than automatons. After Iluvatar rebukes him, Aule is about to kill his creations. However, Iluvatar has pity on them and gives them souls. While Tolkien perhaps was inspired by “Gylfaginning”, he adds his own spin to it, having them created by one of the Valar instead of being residual life forms like maggots. Indeed, the creation of the dwarves is much more infused with Christian concepts in the Silmarillion than in “Gylfaginning”.
Finally, one obscure and perhaps indirect similarity in “Gylfaginning” can be found in the interaction between Njord and Skadi. While they married and agree to spend alternating amoung of days at each other’s home, both are in love with different lands (coast versus the mountains), which leads to them separating after exchanging a few verses about why they dislike the lodgings of the other. This is echoed in the song Treebeard sings about the Ents and the Entwives. The Ent sings to the Entwife about the glories of his land and why his domain is the best, only to be countered by the Entwife’s praise of her own garden. While a small detail, the similarity is quite a nice touch.
One thing I think Tolkien definitely got from Gylfaginning is the names of the groups of “gods”. In the Prose Edda the first gods of that of the Æsir and in Tolkien’s creation myth the first ones are those of the Ainur. The next group of “gods” in the Edda are the Vanir and in Tolkien’s world they are the Valar. There are many story differences within the order and creation, however I think specifically the order of the names of who came first and created who was at least inspired by their names.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that man are children of a specific god or gods. This is common throughout many mythologies, but more specifically certain gods are seen as the parents of certain races seems very reminiscent of both the dwarves and men. He does this with other races too.
Finally, I think the idea of organization within the world between races and aspects of the world (water, stars, light, etc.) is something Tolkien definitely seems to be ascribed to. While in the Prose Edda it’s specifically among the natural things, and Tolkien certainly uses this, I feel as if Tolkien takes this farther with his morality. He is very black and white many times with his morality view points and this begins as early with Melkor.
I would argue that he didn’t steal the concept of races being associated with certain gods. This comes from so many mythos around the world that I think the general idea would have been within his mind. Many times demons are associated with the underworld god, elves are associated with a light filled and “noble” god, blacksmith related species are usually associated with a fire or lava god, or even like fae can be associated with mischievous gods. I think because of how well rounded and taught Tolkien was that he had a general idea already in his mind of this and just generally based off of many sources.
1. Something that appears multiple times in the story is Loke’s shapechanging tricks. This reminds me of Saruman and how he will disguise himself as an old man to deceive others. However, Loke is more mischievous than evil, unlike Saruman. I also noticed that the Norse world has multiple elf races, and dwarf races that are known for digging and mining underground. The idea of a society built around a royal family or lineage is similar to the countries of Rohan and Gondor in Middle-Earth.
ReplyDelete2. I think that Tolkien decided to use the races of elves, dwarves, and men for his stories because it would provide something familiar to the reader. Tolkien does an excellent job of making Middle-Earth feel real, and having mythological races that a reader has already heard of will assist with their suspension of disbelief. In addition, no creative or fictional work can possibly be completely original, since every creator draws stories from their experiences, knowledge, and interests. Tolkien’s love of these stories means that he was very likely to use them as inspirations for his own work.