Exercise for Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
Tolkien not only translated the poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight from Middle English to Modern English, but he also prepared a critical edition for academic scholars of the Middle English version of the poem. He spent a significant amount of time in his professional career working on this poem, even though he considered himself an Old English/Anglo-Saxon scholar for whom the study of poems like Beowulf was of primary importance. Old English scholars study works composed from about 500-1100 CE (like Beowulf), while Middle English scholars study works composed from about 1100-1500 CE (like Chaucer's Canterbury Tales).
-- Record your thoughts on any or all of these questions in a comment to this post no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
-- Reply to comments about this post from at least 2 different classmates no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
Comments on this page will not count toward your blog requirement for this week. To earn points for the regular blog requirement, you must post/comment on the Home page.
Tolkien not only translated the poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight from Middle English to Modern English, but he also prepared a critical edition for academic scholars of the Middle English version of the poem. He spent a significant amount of time in his professional career working on this poem, even though he considered himself an Old English/Anglo-Saxon scholar for whom the study of poems like Beowulf was of primary importance. Old English scholars study works composed from about 500-1100 CE (like Beowulf), while Middle English scholars study works composed from about 1100-1500 CE (like Chaucer's Canterbury Tales).
- What similarities exist between any of Tolkien’s fiction and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (themes, motifs, ideas, actions, characters, etc.)?
- How is the presentation of heroism in this poem similar to or different from heroism in Tolkien's works or in his article "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics" (or even the poem Beowulf itself)?
- Why might this poem have been so important to Tolkien’s thinking?
-- Record your thoughts on any or all of these questions in a comment to this post no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
-- Reply to comments about this post from at least 2 different classmates no later than 11:59 pm on Friday, March 27.
Comments on this page will not count toward your blog requirement for this week. To earn points for the regular blog requirement, you must post/comment on the Home page.
The presentation of heroism in the poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is similar to that in Tolkien’s work in the way Gawain knows, despite the risk to his life, he must go and fulfill the challenge or his honor and the honor of the entire round table was in jeopardy. This is similar to how Frodo accepts the burden of being the ring bearer, even knowing how dangerous it is and his wish for his part in the ordeal to be over. Another similarity can be draw between Gawain’s reluctance to accept the blows, when it’s his turn, for fear for his life, as he knows it might mean the end, despite the green girdle, and Frodo’s unwillingness to fully commit to being the ring bearer, after accepting the role, and trying to pawn it off onto other people before eventually accepting it, primarily under the compulsion of the ring’s hold on him, most likely.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with you that both Gawain and Frodo, although fearful, accept the destiny or responsibility at the end of their journeys that they took on willingly at the beginning of their journey. They are also not infallible in that acceptance - like you said, Frodo tries to give the Ring to Gandalf (and Galadriel...and...) and Gawain winces at the expectation of the blow and breaks his promise to the Lord due to fear for his life if he does not keep the girdle.
DeleteHonor plays a large role in any medieval European work that I have ever read/watched, and it plays a large role in Tolkien's works as well. I think it is different how honor takes different forms though. An honorable knight of the Round Table is much different than an honorable Hobbit. Instead of honor developed by heroic deeds and remarkable courage and moral aptitude, hobbits gain their honor through consistency, sociability, kindness, and predictability.
DeleteI completely agree with you! Frodo and Gawain are very similar in a lot of ways. I am not shocked they are very similar considering Tolkien was inspired by a lot of medieval european works and the themes in both Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Tolkiens' greatest works all pulled from medieval european themes.
DeleteThis is so true! The idea of heroism is HUGE to the story of both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings and I can definitely see it within certain things that Sir Gawain does. I think the theme of heroism also goes hand in hand with honor because, to me, oftentimes people are or become heroes because of their value of honor. I really liked your parallel between Sir Gawain and Frodo.
DeleteIt seemed to me at first that there is some similarity between the choice of Sir Gawain as hero for the story and the choices Tolkien made for his heroes. Sir Gawain himself when requesting to be the one to take the Green Knight’s challenge explains that of all those in the great hall, he is “the weakest” and “in wit feeblest, and the least loss, if I live not,” not the obvious choice for hero, and in many ways the underdog (page 11). This is very similar to Bilbo/Frodo/hobbits in general – they appear weaker than the others around them, but in the end both hobbits and Gawain prove to have more courage, strength, and ability than they were originally claimed to have.
ReplyDeleteThere is also an element of “significance of the insignificant,” especially in the winning of the garter from the fair lady, which is a small token (until we realize its use) but also ends up having more story significance than just saving Gawain’s life – it is the reason for the Knight hitting Gawain the third time he swings, because Gawain won that token but did not keep to his bargain with the Lord/Knight. So, while the object is significant for one reason, we later learn that it is important for another unforeseen reason! (Also, there may be some comparison drawn between the garter and the mithril coat – someone able to take more blows than they should because of a gift they were given…)
Shoot, just realized I definitely used the wrong word and I don't know how to edit comments. Girdle! I knew it started with a G, just mixed up my English.
DeleteWhen reading Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Gawain's speech about him being least fit for this task, and still going for it anyway immediately reminded me of the hobbits as well. I think your comparison of the girdle to the mithril coat is extremely interesting. It would definitely make sense to have this hidden, lacelike object be one of the influences on Tolkien, and one that actually ends up making a huge difference in the fate of the characters who possess them. Very fun to think about!
DeleteWhile I agree with you assessment about Gawain putting himself forth as not worthy of taking on the task giving this similar feel to hobbits, it doesn't personally fit for me. What Gawain is doing is projecting a false sense of modesty, as he's one of the greatest knights of the Round Table, so that doesn't really give me the same feeling. Perhaps Tolkien takes that false sense of modest and turns it true in his hobbits. In that case, it does definitely work.
DeleteI think the girdle comparison with mithril is very interesting, but again, doesn't quite fit for me as the token for Gawain was a trick whereas with Frodo it was sincere. It's difficult to say if the girdle actually really had any magical properties to it or if the green knight had really meant to kill Gawain, if he'd been able to without anything impeding him to do so. Notwithstanding, all these comparisons are really interesting to consider.
Tolkien definitely likes the underdog. I personally didn't interpret Gawain's comments about him being "weak" and "feeble" as a sign of inadequacy or weakness, but instead of humility. This humility and strength in moral character is probably one of the biggest takeaways about Gawain from the poem.
DeleteThe similarites I found interesting between this poem and Tolkien's works were the theme of fellowship, idea of keeping your word. We see fellowship in the poem between Gawain and the lords of the castles he stays at; Gawain steps in for Arthur when the Green Knight proposes a game and even says to Arthur, "bid me abandon this bench and stand by you there" (section 15). Gawain also develops a fellowship with the lord of the castle he stays at when he is looking for the Green Chapel, they enter into an amiable game of sharing their daily wins. This is similar to the brotherly relationship we see between the members of the Fellowship as they stand up for and protect one another as well as engage in friendly competition.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of keeping your word is also prevalent in both this poem and Tolkien's works. Bilbo expects Gollum to keep up his end of the deal after Bilbo has won the riddle game and Gawain is shown as needing to keep his appointment with the Green Knight regardless of the peril because it is the honorable thing to do.
You make a great point about the influence of fellowship in both Tolkien's works and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Although the dishonesty of Sir Gawain over the girdle causes him to not make it though the second meeting with the green knight unscathed, the knight does spare him from death because he had been an honest and honroable guest otherwise. Without their fellowship, I don't think Sir Gawain would have survived. Likewise, in many of Tolkien's works, bonds between characters play an important role in the protagonist making it out if their trials alive
DeleteYou make some good points. I think the theme of keeping your word is a common theme among medieval stories. There seemed to be more emphasis on character and upholding your word in these types of stories. I definitely see this theme come out in the hobbit when Bilbo encounters Gollum for the first time.
Delete-Similarities:
ReplyDeleteFor common themes, there is the instances of the significance of the seemingly insignificant that we have talked about in class. For Sir Gawain, there is the gift of the Girdle from the lady that ends up being the reason he is injured by the green knight for nit being honest, as well as the seemingly chance encounter with the man in the castle, who ends up being the green knight he was searching for all along. There is also this idea of the unlikely hero. When the other knights hesitate to take up the challenge of the Green knight, Gawain humbly offers up himself, though he doesn't think he is best fit for the job.
-Heroism:
I think there's definitely influence for Tolkien from Sir Gawain and the Green Knight when it comes to heroism. There's this idea that heroes are flawed, but despite their mistakes, they can still succeed.
-Importance to Tolkien:
From looking at these common themes and ideas, I think that Tolkien definitely took some important ideas and events from this story to shape some aspects of his own storytelling. There is the rise of an unlikely hero, temptation of power/love/glory, the journey must go one despite almost certain death, choosing willingly to undertake such a journey despite fear, and coming back alive(though injured or changed)despite great threat and trials.
I think your point about the girdle representing the significance of the seemingly insignificant is excellent. All while I was reading Parts 2 and 3, I kept wondering why these scenes in the castle mattered in the overall story of Gawain meeting his fate at the hands of the Green Knight. More and more, I began wondering whether the lord of the castle and the Green Knight were somehow connected, but these thoughts were mostly peripheral. Then, when Gawain accepted the girdle from the lady and broke his word with the lord of the castle by not exchanging it as they had agreed, I suspected this might be important but instead focused on finding whether or not it would indeed save his head from being whacked off. Looking back, I can definitely see how the author was setting up for the final reveal. I have a hunch that Tolkien utilized some of these techniques, knowingly or unknowingly, in his own works.
DeleteWhen it comes to the similarities between Tolkien’s works and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, one of the biggest and most favorite structural similarities I noticed was the extensive use of alliteration in poetry. In fact, half of the joy of reading the story was taking note of the alliteration in every single line. You can keep your metaphors, your similes, even your hyperbole - but you can never have too much alliteration:
ReplyDelete“Troll sat alone on his seat of stone,
And munched and mumbled a bare old bone;
For many a year he had gnawed it near,
For meat was hard to come be.
Done by! Gum by!
In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone,
And meat was hard to come by”
- Tolkien p.270, from Fellowship
Besides just structure, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight shares a similar theme of temptation with Tolkien’s works. This is more parallelism in regards to the Ring and all those it corrupts of course; however, there is a more literal parallel in the case of Aragorn and Eowyn. Just like Sir Gawain, Aragorn remains a paragon of virtue, refusing her in a way that is both firm yet does not border on rude. Granted his words are not as flowery as Sir Gawain’s, but then again he did not have to repel her three days in a row and instead could escape via the Paths of the Dead. Jokes aside, another parallel between works, this time between Sir Gawain and Tolkien’s piece on Beowulf is the inevitability of death. The only fault of Sir Gawain in the story stems from his fear of death causing him to break his pact to save his life. After initially faltering, he then steels himself for the full blow. This need to bravely face the inevitability of death is discussed at length by Tolkien in his essay on Beowulf. In fact, this is the reason why death from dragon and the dragon itself was essential in the poem; the whole point of the narrative is to display the bravery of men and the gods in a struggle that inevitably leads to defeat.
Finally, one other similarity between Sir Gawain and Tolkien’s works is a throwback to an earlier part of class. I remember one class where we discussed at length the reasoning for why breaking the rules in the riddle game between Bilbo and Gollum in The Hobbit carried such gravity, even when it was just a game. Sir Gawain seems to be a possible source of this idea of the solemnity of a pact, even if it is the matter of a simple game. All Gawain had to do was give to the Green Knight everything he had received in the day in return for the spoils of the hunt. However, love of his own life overruled his typically virtuous judgment, leading to his hiding of the belt. In a similar vein, Bilbo, down to his riddle, technically cheats by asking a non-riddle, breaking this seemingly sacred rule of riddle games.
(Bonus note: After reading this poem, that one temptation scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail just became even more hilarious. But I digress; besides, that was Sir Galahad in the movie, not Gawain).
I have to second your point about the similarity in use of alliteration in Tolkien and Sir Gawain! I couldn't help but read Sir Gawain out loud to myself since the alliteration made the lines flow so seamlessly! I'm not sure if Tolkien's alliteration usage is as constant in his work as it is in Sir Gawain but when he does employ it, it is noticeable and enhances the reading experience.
DeleteAlso, great observation of how Tolkien may have been inspired by the sacred(?) pact made in Sir Gawain when he wrote the riddle game in the Hobbit. Slight deviation from the truth as a result of fear/corruption appears in both texts, though in dissimilar circumstances.
I also found myself reading Sir Gawain out loud! Originally I hadn't noticed the alliteration and was having some difficulty focusing on the story (for about the first page, stir-crazy from being inside and not really knowing what it was I was getting myself into by reading this), but as soon as I realized how the lines were composed and how fun the sounds of each were, it was so much easier and more enjoyable to read! I don't know if I was just too tired, but it actually took me about that first page to realize that the alliteration was happening. Once I started reading it aloud though, the flow was immediately apparent.
DeleteOne connection your pseudonym made me think of is how Tom Bombadil talks! So many of the lines in those sections of the Fellowship have the same cadence and rhythm as Tom's way of talking, and again, it is something that is fairly easy to overlook at first if you aren't paying attention, but once you realize it you notice it everywhere - and reading out loud just makes it more effective!
I also noticed the similarities between Sir Gawain's interactions with the lord of the castle's wife and Aragorn's interactions with Eowyn. While I read "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" I kept on wondering why he did not simply inform the lady that he was not going to be subdued by her advances earlier. Nevertheless, it was his chivalry, his dedication to not offend the mistress of the house in which he was a guest, that kept him from speaking out. Just as you noticed, Aragorn, too, was quite polite in turning away Eowyn's advances careful not to insult her gravely. Like Gawain genuinely cared for the lady despite not falling for her enticement, so too in a different way was Aragorn truly happy at seeing Eowyn content in her relationship with Farimir.
DeleteSpeaking to your point about the similarites in style between the poem and Tolkien's work I think it is interesting that Tolkien chose to take inspiration from the alliteration in the poem. Seeing as this is an old poem I assume that it was told orally, so using things like rhyme and alliteration would help the orator remember the story. Tolkien, as we have discussed has a fascination with norse stories and storytelling, and I think he wanted to make his stories seem as genuinely old and norse as those he loved so much. When the characters in his works are telling stories to eachother or reciting historical events they do so in a poetic style because these stories are told orally so they need to have structures that help them remember.
DeleteA similarity that seems to exist between Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Tolkien's work, specifically the Lord of the Rings, is the characterization of the protagonist. While Sir Gawain is indeed a noble, honorable, and brave knight, he is also very humble and introduces himself as a figure without virtue besides his relation to Arthur. He is also the youngest knight at the table with probably less experience than the other knights. This could mirror Frodo's inexperience in the dangers and wilderness of Middle-Earth compared to other members of the Fellowship. Like Gawain, Frodo holds a dangerous task which he is destined to fulfill, though it may bring his demise. Frodo's humbleness and devotion to others provides him strength in fulfilling his quest and not succumbing to the lure of the Ring, just as Gawain remains honorable despite temptation.
ReplyDeleteI really like your comparison between Frodo and his reasons for continuing his journey and Gawain and his reason for meeting the green knights challenge. Another comparison between them occurred to me when I read this. Both Frodo and Gawain nearly get there but falter at the last minute. Frodo by deciding he doesn't actually want to give up the ring, and Gawain by accepting the girdle in an attempt to save his life. Both or not faultless at the end of their tasks. Very interesting.
DeleteYou hit on a lot of the themes that I noticed as well. I think its very interesting that in the story of Sir Gawain, he a bit of an unlikely hero, similar to Frodo in The Lord of the Rings. I think this is where Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration for the hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Additionally, the theme of temptation is also one that I noticed in both stories. This was a very interesting reading and helped me understand Tolkien's thought process when writing his fiction.
DeleteThis is a great similarity between Sir Gawain and the Green Night and The Lord of the Rings! I can definitely see the similarities between Sir Gawain and Frodo, especially when you word it so eloquently. I think the idea of characters being humble, honorable, and willing to do things that could potentially harm them is something that Tolkien valued and something that can be seen in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight as well.
DeleteChivalry is undeniably a recurring theme throughout "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight," and while I would say that Aragorn best exemplifies these noble attributes in Tolkien's own works, I also think Gimli the Dwarf can be quite chivalric himself. One of the qualities of medieval chivalry was to show respect to women. While initially skeptical and wary of the Lady Galadriel, he later came to defend her name and honor. After Eomer insults the Lady of Lorien, Gimli comes to the defense of her honor. This scuffle between Gimli and Eomer later evolves into a true friendship, but Eomer learned his lesson asking that Gimli forgive his "rash words concerning the Lady of the Wood."
ReplyDeleteI think heroism is portrayed rather similarly between the poem and The Lord of the Rings in particular. Both Gawain and the Fellowship set out on a quest that likely leads to their demise. However, neither the knight nor the band of travelers flag or fail yet press on. Heroism also is demonstrated off the battlefield. Sir Gawain is just as heroic when he's not confronting the Green Knight. When lodging at the lord's castle, he is invited to stay longer. He genuinely seems to have enjoyed the company and atmosphere of this new resting-place, yet he presses on despite the merriment to finish his task, a truly brave and noble act. Likewise, in Tolkien's own works, the characters often demonstrate heroism when there is no one to battle. Despite their accommodations at the house of Tom Bombadil, or Elrond, or Galadriel, the Company continues on their quest not scorning the hospitality of their hosts but pressing on even when comfort begs them to stay.
I think "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" shaped Tolkien's thinking in that it offered him a true medieval romance filled to the brim with admirable and applicable themes. Despite being written centuries and centuries before, the nobility, sense of duty and honor, and chivalry still pertained to Tolkien's world. Thus, those themes incorporated in a book would would enable Tolkien to connect the past to the present in an entertaining, stylistic, and academic way while still being understood by a general audience.
I agree with you that heroism is prevalent in Tolkien's works, we see that Aragorn is a true hero who will sacrafice everything for the good of those around him. He protects the Shire and the surrounding lands from evil without expecting anything in turn for goodness sake! However, I think the heroism in "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" isn't exactly "true heroism". The only reason Gawain sets out to meet the Green Knight is because he doesn't want to be labelled as dishonorable. In the poem there is a heavy emphasis on if others think you are honorable, so I found Gawain's honor to be more selfish because of the peer pressure to be honorable. The only point in the poem that felt like "true heroism" to me was when the fellow leading Gawain to the Green Chapel stopped and told Gawain that he wouldn't tell anyone if Gawain just ran away. Here Gawain could leave and I think if his honor was completely based on peer pressure he would. However, he presses on because he also has integrity.
DeleteSo, in short, I wouldn't say that Gawain's honor (the acceptance of peers) is as important as his integrity which I think is more important in Aragorn's character too.
I agree with most of what you have to say. Tolkien's works show a lot of heroism and have a lot of honor thrown in there as well. I find it interesting that honor is really only mentioned with specific characters in LOTR (especially with Aragorn) but that it still exists in most of the characters. Even though honor isn't mentioned all that often with the hobbits, it would only be too easy to point out moments where they display it regardless.
DeleteExcellent points all around! If I may, I would further elaborate on the point of heroism you mention from the poem and in Lord of the Rings. Not only is heroism is shown off the battlefield, but also when no one is there to see it. Despite being an incredible and chivalrous knight, Gawain goes off to almost certain beheading by the Green Knight alone. Much like Frodo and Sam's quest or Boromir's heroic sacrifice, Gawain's second encounter with the Green Knight occurs far from the eyes of Arthur's court. Sometimes the most heroic actions occur in the wilderness or behind closed doors!
DeleteThe idea of "fay" and "faerie" are the most obvious similarities between Tolkien's work and Sir Gawain. It is pretty easy to imagine the Green Knight approaching Farmer Giles of Ham, or the Smith of Wootton Major. It dwells on the concept of things which cannot be explained through traditional means, and require the imaginative use of fantasy.
ReplyDeleteThis poem is substantially different than Beowulf. The heroic acts of Gawain are more mental, and courage based. He didn't really any accomplish any extraordinary physical feat (like ripping the arm off of an ogre). He just had the courage to withstand the presence and threat of some kind of green and inexplicable phantasm of a stout knight. The most action in the poem is actually just the lord's hunting scenes, which do not involve Gawain at all. This poem is also more gruesome than any of Tolkien's works. The detail in the hunting scenes is much more substantial gore than what we see from Tolkien (although it is still pretty mild compared to more modern works, I'm looking at you GoT).
I believe it was influential to Tolkien because the entire work seems much more lighthearted than poems and stories like Beowulf. But this lighthearted nature doesn't mean it is shallow, or subject to further study and investigation. That is how much of Tolkien's works are. Leaf by Niggle is a perfect example. The content is not super serious, but it still tells a profound story.
I definitely agree with your idea that stories don't have to be gruesome or dark to have meaning or be inspirational. Although Sir Gawain is a little bit more graphic than Tolkien's work, as you said, it's still relatively light and has uplifting ideas. This is something about Tolkien that I really appreciate: that he's able to make compelling, meaningful stories without being unnecessarily graphic or violent.
DeleteThe "fae" and the "faerie" was a really big comparison I also noticed, and thought it was kind of cool how he tied his faerie from this poem, and other works in the time period. I also agree with the Gruesome aspect, it really is a little darker than mostly all of Tolkien's works. I think Tolkien wanted to make sure he kept the audience broad and the gruesome to a minimum to attract more readers to his masterpiece. Also, I really liked your tie of Leaf by Niggle, I'm sure other people might have picked up on it, but I sure didn't. Good insight!
DeleteYou make a good point in demonstrating that gore does not a compelling story make, though I would hazard to play the Green Knight's advocate in this case. Hunting back then was a major pastime for the nobility in that period, and thus the hunting scenes most likely serve the same important function as the detailed description of the Green Knight's armor - that of providing vivid description of court life and demonstrating the poet's knowledge of courtly affairs. At the same time, in regards to literary analysis the hunt could be seen as a metaphorical parallel to Gawain's temptation each day. The first day of hunting a deer is not so hard, similar to the first day of Gawain's temptation. The boar is significantly harder, mirroring the heightened banter between Gawain and the lady. Finally, the crafty fox is the last creature to be hunted, which is fitting as the lady finally gets through Gawain's defenses via the garter of protection playing on Gawain's fear of death.
DeleteIf I’m being totally honest I completely blanked on the faerie! I honestly think someone else who could be almost like a fae is Tom Bombadil. He does at least have some explanation however he still has a lot of strange knowledge that can be confusing how he got them. I also agree that it’s very different from Beowulf but I think Tolkien shares at least one idea with Beowulf in Aragorn. Aragorn would be so clearly a classic hero who would save the day from monsters. However, I think the main difference is that Tolkien argues that as you said you don’t just need physical feats. Being a hero requires the character and heart of one not just muscles. Although I would argue that Tolkien’s work can get as dark as Beowulf but as you said doesn’t necessarily get concerningly bloody. I would argue in more specifics in the influence of Gawain on Tolkien but I also didn’t think of the tone! I feel like tone wise, Gawain feels more like The Hobbit while LotR shares more character moments with Gawain but some tone moments with Beowulf.
DeleteWhen looking at Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and LotR, I think is it easy to see some similarites. You have a young hero who offers to take up a grand quest when no one else steps forward. Interestingly enough, both are the nephew to a character that has already had adventures, something that is a smaller detail, but fun all the same.
ReplyDeleteThe themes of the journey/questing are there, but it seems like a much different quest to me. While Frodo's quest is to destroy an evil artifact, Gawain is part of a contest for an ax. However, I do think it is worth noting that both characters have an item that has magical qualities: the Ring and the garter belt. In a way, both of these items disservice the hero. The Ring for the obvious reasons that it wants to be returned to its master and corrupts anything that is in possession of it, and the belt in that it gives away Gawain's lie and causes him to recive the light blow to his neck. it is always interesting to see how different magic items are treated, and in both stories, there are a lot. The idea of magic items is always interesting because, while someone has to have magic to make them, the wielder does not usually have to be magic for them to take effect.
As for bravery in Sir Gawain, I have seen a few views of it. At the end of the story, the green belt is turned into a symbol of brotherhood and comradery between the knights. However, there is the fact that Gawain used it to try and escape his fate, which shows some degree of cowardness. I say this because one way to see the story is as a parody of knighthood and critisizing the codes of the time. So the original writer might not be praising the knights for their brotherhood, but rather critisizing them for the willingness to cover up for each other. Compaired to Beowulf, Sir Gawain is not a praise of a knights bravery, but rather a show of cowardness covered up.
When thinking of similarities between the stories of The Lord of the Rings and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, a few examples stand out to me. The first being the overall theme of temptation. Just like Boromir was tempted by the ring in The Lord of the Rings, Sir Gawain’s
ReplyDeletetemptation takes effect when a lady from Bercilak’s court offers a green girdle to him.
He accepts it, but temptation and his own desires take over him in the moment he refuses to
give the girdle to Sir Bercilak due to the words that the lady told him about the girdle.
Second, the concept of fate is very similar between The Lord of the Rings and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Not only will fate depend on the decisions of one character, but on the decisions of every character. Every character will supply different decisions which will have an impact upon other characters. The best example of this that i can think of is that
Frodo Baggins gets the One Ring. One of the smallest and most insignificant persons in the story has the one thing that can decide the future of everyone in Middle-Earth. But how? Why does he have the One Ring? The answer is because of the decisions that Bilbo made.
The biggest differences in heroism between Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Beowulf is that the character of beowulf is fearless and leads him to dangerous quests. On the other hand, Sir Gawain is more human-like, we frequently read about Gawain’s fears and anxieties. Additionally, Beowulf is arrogant and lacks humility. Sir Gawain is always humble and true to himself.
I believe that this poem was important to Tolkien's thinking because it provided a different perspective on heroism than the classic super hero model. Where characters that were not the most powerful in the land prevailed. And the Idea of fate; the idea that all decisions are connected heavily influenced Tolkien’s way of thinking.
I really like how you talked about temptation. I think the parallels with Boromir is really good, because I mainly thought of Frodo's temptations, but I think yours is better. I also like how you brought in the significance of the insignificance, its a theme we see a lot in Tolkien, but might not think about in other things!
DeleteI really like how you talked about the significance of individual decisions. Each and every little choice that happened during both stories (LOTR and Gawain and the Green Knight) went into how it ended. I think we often think each of our little decisions don't matter but they usually do. Whether it affects the entire fate of the world is hard to say, but it certainly affects our day, week, or year.
DeleteThere are many points of crossover between Gawain and the Green Knight and LOTR and the Hobbit. One of the foremost points being that honor is extremely important. For some, this would not matter, but for Bilbo, Frodo, Aragorn, Gawain, etc. this is an extremely important thing to maintain. To always do what they see as the right thing. Those without honor in both of these universes are ostracized. Both Gawain and Frodo are tested and both succeed at times and fail at others. I think, as we have discussed before, that this makes both Frodo and Gawain more realistic characters. If a character succeeds in everything they do, it makes them rather unobtainable and "above". The idea of going on a quest with no chance of return is also a common theme in these stories. This also falls in line with heroism in these stories, including Beowulf, of going above and beyond and accepting your fate no matter the consequences for the greater good. Also both take place in some sort of "middle earth" which I thought was an interesting connection.
ReplyDeleteI think this poem was probably extremely important to Tolkien. Particularly since Tolkien mainly studied Anglo-Saxon English and this was in Middle English so it was out of his wheel house. Even so he spent quite a long time on this poem. There are many similarities between this poem and Tolkien's stories, his stories certainly aren't just recreations but there are definitely common themes.
I agree, since this is what Tolkien studied, he was really able to connect and draw a good storyline from it. I really didn't realize the point you made, about leaving and not knowing if you'd return, but you are 100% correct, and it's a really big tie between Tolkien and the poem.
DeleteI agree that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight would definitely be important to Tolkien considering it relates a lot to what he studied and considering all the similarities between his works and it. It definitely makes lot of sense that he would have a connection to that considering these factors.
DeleteSir Gawain and the Green Knight shows a lot of similarity to a lot of Tolkien's best works. First things first, doing the job, even though you might not want to, but do it because it's the right thing to do and know they should. These show a lot of ties between The Hobbit and LOTR. Just because these characters were given something ti do, doesn't mean they had to, but they did, and that is what makes the story so much better.
ReplyDeleteThis poem really gets into similar ties with both of Tolkien's best works, in that, the seemingly insignificant play a big role in all three. They are also both really big chunks of dense work, and another similarity between them is that they really need to be read where you can comprehend or you'll get lost. Also, this seemed a lot (at least to me) like the journey in the poem took a long time with some stops in between, prolonging the ending.
If you look at this poem, and Tolkien's work, you can see the ties in where he used the poem in The Hobbit (Bilbo), and LOTR (Frodo). The heroism in both of his works reflects the heroism in the poem, in that they are going to do the job, no matter how dangerous or how extensive. They all take on such a big responsibility, and although they had questioned it at some time, they end up doing what was right, regardless of the outcome.
Totally agree! This poem is a lot more similar to Tolkien's work than I expected it to be.
DeleteSir Gawain and the Green Knight has a few similar themes and connections to Tolkien's works. One of these similarities being feasts which we see quite a lot throughout all of Tolkien's works. In Sir Gawain and the Green Knight we see a feast in the beginning and it really reminds me of how in all of the feasts Tolkien writes about the focus is comradery and great food. Another thing I noticed was that it was mentioned that someone wasn't wearing armor which made me think about Frodo and Bilbo and how they don't appear to be the most likely of heroes and so by not having armor or typical hero attire it really made me think about how Tolkien's heroes are not typical heroes. In addition to this it is mentioned that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight takes place in a sort of Middle Earth which was kind of interesting.
ReplyDeleteI hadnt thought about the feasts parallel, but it is definitely true! texts that focus a lot on the food are really interesting, since so many stories just pass over it.
DeleteWhere did you find out about this happening "in a sort of middle earth"? I didn't catch that bit.
Hi Merry!
DeleteI didn't either! Although it makes me wonder as to why so many feasts take place within Tolkien's world. Perhaps because it's a sign of friendship? Like sharing so much food with so many people shows like a positive side of humanity of sharing an overflow of resources? What do you think?
I didn't catch the "in a sort of Middle Earth" explicitly however I will agree that setting wise comes off very much like Middle Earth - or rather vice versa! Lords and ladys, not quite as they seem, but still generous and so much nature and countryside to go through to get to the area you need. I think even the idea of a Green Knight would actually come straight out of Middle Earth! Like an elf or man or someone who got along super well with the forest and turned green and became the defender of the forest against man! At least, to me. They're like cousins in settings to me I suppose.
The theme of stoutness of heart and mind being the greater than that of the body is one that is very much laced through the race of hobbits.
ReplyDeleteThis story focuses on bargains struck and honored absolutely, Which pops up in various places in middle earth, such as the riddle game with Gollum.
Heroism in this is about doing what is right, not great deeds in battle. The author casually brushes off Gawain slaying giants and other monsters, but spends pages depicting his honorable relationship with the lady of the castle.
In middle earth this is how the hobbits win their glory, though they have their moments on the field, it is their courage to do what is right that makes them heroes.
This kind of heroism is quite different from Beowulf, where his heroism is built on the slaying of monsters.
As a devout Catholic, I am sure Tolkien was moved by the focus on God and Christ throughout this text. But I imagine even more appealing to Tolkien was the focus on bravery and honor.
Merry,
DeleteMuch of Tolkien's focus was on doing the right thing like you said, not just grand heroic deeds. I think we are all seeing how much Tolkien wanted the reader to think about the significance of the seemingly insignificant. The hobbits, particularly Merry and Pippin do not seem like they will contribute anything, but they are convicted about doing the right thing, so they end up helping to defeat Saruman and Sauron.
One idea similar idea is not shying from one’s fate, and keeping to what you agreed. An obvious example is with Frodo. He recognized it was his fate to take the ring to Mordor and he agreed to it and on his journey never faultered – right up until about the end. Gawain sets out to finish his pact with the Green Knight despite the fact he knows that it will kill him. He insists on it, and even resists temptation from Morgan. However he still did take her girdle to not be killed and hid this from the Green Knight. In the end though, he owned up to this back in Arthur’s court and was honest with everyone with his shame. Another related theme is that his friends than all wear similar green bands around their wrists to signify their support of Gawain which, at least to me, is totally something that the fellowship would do.
ReplyDeleteI think Tolkien’s ideas and presentation of heroism is different from the presentation of heroism in the poem Beowulf. Beowulf is in fact a hero, but he reminds me much more of Aragorn than Bilbo or Frodo. While Aragorn is a hero in his own right, I feel it’s a bit more like Beowulf in the fact that it doesn’t just come from within him. There is a familial history behind them that indicates they should and will be heroes. However, Tolkien seems to be more along the lines that no matter how humble your beginnings or how your personality is at that moment, you can change and grow into the hero the world needs. Heroes can be born or made.
I think it demonstrated to Tolkien that even seemingly weak, or meek, characters that aren’t initially so honorable can still grow even in the 14th century. Also that even those who are noble can falter in their most fearful hour, that though they may still go through the journey they can still hesitate to fulfill their destiny/fate. I think this was important as Old English to Middle English influences are prolific in Middle Earth so that even “heroes of old” could falter or make mistakes was important to show even our generation that everyone is fallible.
The character of the Green Knight shares some similarities with various characters within J.R.R. Tolkien's works in that they seem indestructible or "immune" from death or staying dead. Specifically, the Green Night and Gandalf both experience a "death" that they ultimately survive and this makes them seem somewhat magical, powerful, and, in a way, more than human. This theme or characteristic among these characters can also be seen with other prominent figures in Tolkien's works such as Aragorn and Sauron. Aragorn, a powerful warrior, manages to conquer all and avoid death despite all the life-threatening events he goes through. This makes him seen undefeatable. Sauron, having been defeated once before, manages to rebuild his strength, power, and influence upon Middle Earth. He came back from his defeat and posed, arguably, a greater threat than before, making him quite a scary enemy. This idea of indestructibility and being "above" death are themes that can be seen in both Sir Gawain and the Green Night and Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.
ReplyDeleteTheodred,
DeleteI think you're right that Tolkien drew on the idea of a nearly indestructible enemy. Sauron was defeated thousands of years ago in the books and again by Gandalf in Mirkwood, but he still rallies his power in Mordor. However, even this seemingly impossible enemy is defeated by two hobbits. I think this brings us full circle to the theme of the significance of the insignificant found in the hobbits.
I noticed several similarities between Tolkien’s works and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. The most significant was probably the idea of a character pursuing a challenging and seemingly impossibly quest. Sir Gawain takes his mission for King Arthur’s court that has little reward other than honor, much like Frodo’s mission to destroy the Ring. As a knight, Sir Gawain seeks to protect and help others, which also makes him similar to Aragorn. The theme of doing dangerous deeds in spite of fear is one that appears in both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, one that Tolkien probably drew from this poem. I think that the heroism in this poem is a different from that in Tolkien’s works because his characters are selflessly pursuing their quests, not even seeking honor. Frodo and Sam want to protect their world and their friends, they do not care for honor placed on themselves by their friends or community.
ReplyDeleteThis poem was likely very important to Tolkien’s thinking, because Medieval stories like these are what laid the foundation for a hero’s character. The idea of going to fulfill a quest and defeat some great enemy is the basic storyline of Tolkien’s work, and it is what we find here.